Former Attorney General of India KK Venugopal may have represented chief ministers, states and top politicians during his long career, but he still sees himself as Accidental LawyerThe title of his new autobiography. in a frank conversation with The HinduHe discusses the “orders of political masters” that gave rise to this Anti-Sikh riots in the 1980sHe felt betrayed when he realized the then Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh Kalyan Singh had told him a “sheer lie” that Babri Masjid would not be demolished in the 1990sAnd today the duty of the government is to ensure that there is no discrimination or oppression against any religion or caste. Edited excerpts:
When did you decide to name your book? Accidental Lawyer?
The question of my entry into the legal profession came coincidentally when I originally completed my B.Sc. Had left. Physics and decided that I would start entering the legal profession. That’s how I called myself an accidental lawyer from the beginning.
Your father, constitutional scholar and senior advocate MK Nambiar, has had a great influence on you. Can you tell us more about him – You said there were no direct displays of affection from him, but you always felt his love for you.
The relationship between father and son or children in the 1930s, 40s and 50s was completely different from the relationship between fathers and sons now. Now this hugging business started only after I came to Delhi. Before that it was not like this. There was love, but there was also respectful distance. I was in awe of my father.
There is an incident of yours as a Boy Scout in which you had to show courage by climbing a rope and descending from a house that was on fire. Another example of swimming at the risk of one’s life. Then you meet an elephant in Africa. Why did you take such a risk?
I don’t think twice before taking risks. If I sit back and think, of course I won’t take any risks.
You have a remarkable collection of art and an antiquarian library. Can you tell us a bit about this passion for collecting? What art do you collect? Is there a period or particular school that you prefer?
I was always a collector, a collector of art, a collector of paintings, a collector of handicrafts. If I like a painting I will buy it. But, of course, I will keep an eye on the actor and the prospects for improvement in the painting’s value over the years.
Are you still interested in comics and western novels?
I started with comics as a child. When I was about 10 years old, I started reading Western comics. Today I have a collection of 60 books by Louis L’Amour, practically all the books he wrote, all of them under 120 pages.
The book details your journey, your wanderlust. In a chapter about your trip to Tibet, you mention a spiritual experience that was described as “all-pervading peace in the mind.” How does traveling help?
I don’t think I thought about it on that basis, that it would help me or anything like that. But it was really an experience, and I think everyone should go through this experience. And today, of course, the whole thing has become so easy, because you can go by vehicle, you can go by helicopter, and we had to do 15 days of trekking on narrow… cut trails along the side of the mountains 200 feet below and there was a river flowing 200 feet below.
Your wife, who was your constant traveling companion, died at a relatively young age. How were the years that followed, three small children growing up, you had a career and you were alone.
Strangely, in his last days my wife, instead of taking care of him, called all three of them and told them ‘Your father will miss me very much.’ So, you have to behave yourself and take care of him’… I never felt lonely.
As a lawyer, you have represented many chief ministers, states and top politicians. Is it more demanding for them to attend?
For me, it doesn’t matter whether a person was a CM or any other customer. He had to come to me. I will never go to meet any Chief Minister.
There is a heart-wrenching chapter in your book about the horrors of the Delhi riots, which you have also seen. What was the reason for these riots?
As far as these Sikh riots are concerned, it was the order of the political masters.
You’ve said that impartiality is a plus for lawyers. Now we see lawyers coming to court with cases with communal colour. Has objectivity diminished in recent years?
It depends on the government. It is the duty of the government to ensure that in a secular state like India, there is no difference between one religious community and another, or between one caste and another. They have to ensure that there is no discrimination or harassment. And if this is not done then we will not be able to keep our heads high.
In the chapter ‘Reaping the Whirlwind’ on the Babri Masjid demolition, you have written to Justice Venkatachaliah and other judges saying, “My head hangs in shame. As fast as this demolition has happened, the Union of India, the Central Government should put the bricks back so that the next day the mosque stands whole and untouched.” You were the lawyer of Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Kalyan Singh in the Supreme Court.
I thought those were the right words to say. Why? Because Kalyan Singh had said that he will take care that there is no vandalism. That there was a bridge and if they tried to go in, the police would stop them on this bridge. But no effort was made to stop (karsevaks) from entering. They came and they demolished… I thought that if the bricks had been put back the same night, there would have been no uproar. But the Attorney General (Milan K. Banerjee) said I was trying to do something “very, very funny.” I think the real reason was that Congress thought that if the bricks were put back they would lose vote bank…Kalyan Singh told a blatant lie.
Did you feel a sense of betrayal? Kalyan Singh knew more than what he told you and he assured you to the court that this would not happen?
Not only this, he filed an affidavit which I submitted (to the court). Milan (Banerjee, Attorney General) submitted an intelligence report, which said that the Kar Sevaks were trained for a long time. They were ready to come and demolish. There will be demolition. But Justice Venkatachaliah had to agree with Kalyan Singh that this would not be done. And this is the result. Kalyan Singh was ready to mislead the court and mislead me.
Do you think the Supreme Court collegium is losing its importance? She is hardly using her veto power. Recently a resolution of the collegium said that it had changed its mind about transferring a high court judge to a special high court because the government did not want him there.
If you look at the original Article 124, it was the prerogative of the government to decide who would be appointed and where. Therefore, at least we must proceed on the basis that this was done only in view of the fact that under the original Constitution it was the Government which was entitled to make appointments. So, it would still be something consistent with what the government wanted and what the consultants, that is, the collegium, should have agreed upon.
The judges say this or that and say it is not in the national interest. But judges are expected to interpret the law, the Constitution. Should they speak for the national interest?
If any law is not in public interest then it will be repealed. National interest is an aspect of public interest.
The Supreme Court has said in recent decisions that we should move towards a casteless society. Do you agree?
I completely agree. What is wrong in this country is caste. Everything. I mean, if you marry outside your caste, you kill the groom or the bride. Caste is something that is shaking the entire country now… but then you can take it from me. I cannot imagine a time when caste will disappear.
Do you think women are less recognized in the legal profession now? There is only one woman judge in our Supreme Court.
There are many excellent women lawyers and judges in the High Courts who can be directly elevated to the Supreme Court. Why do you elevate male judges wholesale?
