Israel is an apartheid state; Peace in West Asia a long shot: Gideon Levi

Let’s start with the ongoing war on Iran. Do you think Israel and the US are winning the war or have they completely misjudged the Iranian response?

As it seems now, there will be no clear winner in this war. There will be a heavy price to pay for this, which is already being paid. Both sides, the United States and Israel, started this war without any thought. The cause of regime change in Iran may be a legitimate cause and may even be necessary for the security and independence of the region, but I am not sure it can be achieved by force. And even if, let’s say, a miracle happens and the regime in Iran falls; and then what? Does anyone know who will replace this regime in Iran? We are facing the same problem with Hamas in Gaza. Israel does not want Hamas. Hamas is indeed a bad organization, but no one has any idea who can replace Hamas. So if you don’t have an endgame, a clear endgame, don’t start a war. And now we are at the stage where it has become more and more complicated, there is more and more bloodshed, more and more destruction, more and more countries are getting involved. I mean, almost half the area there is already war-torn. Who will benefit from this apart from arms dealers and the arms industry?

Israel has always used decapitation as a tactic to achieve its objectives. On February 28, the Supreme Leader of Iran was assassinated. Ali Larijani was just murdered. Do you think such killings have helped Israel become a safe country?

Not at all, with a capital letter. First of all, I doubt the legality of such actions. I mean you don’t kill heads of state unless you’re facing Hitler, which is not the case (here). But let’s leave aside the moral and legal question. What did Israel gain from all the killing over the years? The replacement is almost always more radical than its predecessor. Do you think Khamenei’s son will be more liberal than his father, or vice versa? So I don’t think it’s legal. I don’t think it’s legal, but most of all, it serves no purpose because ultimately you have to think about who will replace all those leaders.

How do you view this war from Israel’s side? Iran’s missiles are still attacking Israel. Is it as bad as it is made out to be on social media?

It always looks bad from outside. I know this from struggles I’ve covered elsewhere. I was always more scared before going there than after going there, because people, human beings, always create a new routine for themselves. We have very, very good security systems, warning systems; We get an alert as soon as a missile is launched in Iran, thousands of kilometers away. If there are shelters, we are already going into shelters. But this is not a normal life. I just came out of the shelter. You are going many times during the day and night. The economy is paralyzed, there is no education system, and there are very few flights abroad. I mean, this can’t remain a routine for long. That’s why people internalize it. I have to tell you the figures are amazing – 93-94% Jewish Israelis support this war, which is almost the same figure as North Koreans. I think they’ll reconsider when it becomes more complicated. For years, Iran was portrayed as a great monster in the Israeli media. So people support any fight against the great demon, but things may change.

What is your opinion about Iran?

This is rhetoric. Calling for death to Israel and death to the United States is ugly, but it is not an existential threat. What was really troubling was Iran’s creation of all kinds of proxies around Israel. in the north, Hezbollah; in the south, Hamas; The Houthis in Yemen – it’s a whole circle of fire. So I don’t say Iran is something Israel can ignore, but I’m not sure military power is the answer or the solution. I still believe that we could have achieved a lot through diplomacy, especially in terms of nuclear capabilities. I am not sure we gave enough room for diplomacy. Let me remind you that the Americans canceled the (2015) agreement, not the Iranians.

Israel has been at war continuously for the last 30 months – in Gaza, now in Iran, in Lebanon, etc. How is this ongoing conflict shaping Israeli society?

First of all, we cannot ignore the cost of the other party, which is 100 times heavier. As we speak, there are approximately 6 to 7 million people in the Middle East (West Asia) who have been uprooted from their homes forever. 2 million in Gaza, more than 3 million in Iran, almost 1 million in Lebanon. this is unacceptable. So let’s not forget the cost of the other side, and that of Israel, of all those people who lost their lives. So that in itself is very disturbing. Now the military option for Israel is not the last but the first option. It is very destructive, and it also shapes the mentality of people in this country. And the mentality of Israel and the Israeli people is very aggressive, very militaristic. It doesn’t promise much in terms of any society.

When you wage war, all you think about is will I win? Do I have enough troops, enough technology, enough weapons? Also think about the social cost, economic cost, mental cost, educational cost, moral cost and all of these are not being taken into account.

How do you see the future of the Palestinian question? You yourself said that for peace and stability in the region you need to find a solution to the Palestinian question.

So, unfortunately, Palestinians always pay the biggest price. And they are now completely out of the limelight, and the solution to their problem, which is now 100 years old, is getting further and further away. And they get nothing (from the world) except condemnation and declaration. And they do not achieve anything. They achieved nothing in the last decade. Nothing but bloodshed, gruesome killings, massacres and transfers. We’re all talking about Gaza. I travel to the West Bank at least once a week. What people are going through there is not life. They now live in cages. In many cases they cannot leave their villages, massacres occur on a daily basis.

For the Palestinian people, a solution to the Palestinian problem is now more distant than ever. In my view, the two-state solution missed its chance. This is a train that left the station carrying 700,000 Jewish residents. Nobody is going to vacate the West Bank. Israel never intended to do this. And I fear they will end up like the Native Americans. There is also a danger that Israel will use the wars to displace at least some of them (Palestinians). Plans still exist for both Gaza and the West Bank. I don’t think Israel has given up on it. This is no longer possible, but it may come back. And each such war makes their situation worse, even though without solution to their problem there will never be stability and peace in the Middle East (West Asia). Never.

This bleeding will continue, people without citizenship, perhaps the only people without citizenship in the world, people without any rights, this bleeding will continue. And as long as this bleeding continues, nothing will be solved.

So how long do you think Israel can keep this up? On the one hand, this uncontrolled militarism in the region and, inside, systemic alienation against Palestinians?

This has been going on in Israel for a long time. The question is not how long Israel can continue this. The question is, what kind of Israel will we become? Throughout all those conflicts Israel has also been changing, and not for the better, but for the worse. This is not the Israel we knew 10 and 20 years ago, and it will become more and more violent, more and more nationalist, more and more racist, and more and more militaristic. We are seeing this happening even as we speak. And the question is, for how long will the world let it continue like this?

The world, which knew very well how to handle the first apartheid state, namely South Africa, is completely passive about the second apartheid state, and a part of it continues to embrace Israel.

So you’re saying that Israel is an apartheid state?

How else can you describe it when there are two people, one has all the rights and the other has none? How else can you define it? I don’t know any other definition.

At present, Israel is also carrying out large-scale attacks in Lebanon. What does Israel want to achieve in Lebanon? Can they find a military solution to the Hezbollah problem?

We had already tried it two or three times – we had a buffer zone, we conquered half of Lebanon, and it achieved nothing. Israel has not become a safer place. There is a huge opportunity now because we are facing a government, for the first time in history, a government in Lebanon that is, in fact, prepared to do anything possible to open a new page with Israel, and to disarm Hezbollah. But we don’t give them a chance. We will gain nothing by destroying Lebanon. We tried it. We destroyed Lebanon, we occupied Lebanon, and Hezbollah is no less strong today than it was 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe even stronger politically.

Why is there so much opposition to diplomacy in Israel?

First of all, it is always easier for the ruling class or government to have a military adventure. Because its glory is greater, and it unites those around you. And you know, it’s nationalistic and militaristic. And when the environment is so nationalistic and militaristic, as in Israel, there is no room for diplomacy. So any politician who goes for diplomacy now will commit political suicide, and they know it. So it’s a vicious cycle. This environment, this mentality is being created by politicians. And then they can’t change it. It would be very difficult to take us back to the 1990s when Israel was actually willing to try diplomacy.

Let me take you back to Iran. What do you think the end game is? Will there be peace or will there be prolonged conflict?

So first of all, as I said earlier, because there is no intention to even touch the Palestinian problem, there will be no peace and stability in the coming future. Because of this, you really need to concentrate. First of all, it is the source of everything. I do not say that Iran is attacking Israel because of the Palestinian question. No, but the Palestinian question gives Iran justification to attack Israel. And the same for Hezbollah and the same for Hamas.

Right now, we can only seek some kind of stability, that is, first of all, ending the war with Iran through an agreement between the United States and Iran. I still believe it’s possible. I don’t see any alternative. Because Iran is very strong. They can assimilate, and they proved it in history with the war against Iraq. And Israel can’t take it for years. No way. Therefore, I hope that some compromise will definitely be reached. I think Donald Trump already realizes how much of a fuss he’s made here, and he’ll try to minimize the damage now. And now reducing the damage means climbing down from the tall tree he climbed and trying to reach a new agreement.

Once Donald Trump pulls out of Iran, Israel cannot continue to assert itself in Iran. No way. In Lebanon, yes, in Iran, no. So at least we’ll neutralize this war with Iran, and we’ll have some kind of stability again. But again, it will only be for a few years and then we will be back to the same place.