Michael Danino interview: ‘Mughal period saw violence; Britain did not recognize the victims of the colonies’

Comment on the process of designing new textbooks. What goes into the effort? What are the timelines?

Several surveys have stated that social science and mathematics are among the most dislikes. We want to break that zinc. We are quite satisfied that we have managed to reduce the information load, which we want to remember students. Both classes seven and eight social science textbooks are divided into two parts. And we are only bringing out the first part with the hope that in a few months, the second part will be available. They are being prepared at this time.

The new class eight NCERT textbooks have created a debate about the depiction of the Mughals, described as ‘a mixture of both cruelty and tolerance’. Can you explain in detail the effort to remove the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal depiction in the new textbook?

Each article of media is particularly focused on the Mughals and Sultanate. This is surprising, because for us, this is not the main focus. It is only one of the seven chapters. We talked about cruelty and tolerance, although we did not reveal these two words. They were caught by the media.

This is a fact that it is a period that sees too much violence, and we are very light about it. We have been very liberal, because if you see the whole literature – and I am now talking about primary sources, especially like Muslim texts Babnma Or Akburnama – There is no doubt that these Vijay was very violent. In the initial stages, this violence was not limited to India. Turkic, Mughal, and Afghan powers along with the Indian subcontinent -in Central Asia, sometimes warns against each other and beyond. The same violence is a type of recurring figure.

So what we are saying is that it is to be accepted as a fact of history. We feel that preceding efforts (while writing textbooks) often include unnecessarily white of some of these aspects. When you cannot white history, you do not want to include all terrible data – because then we will have to insert hundreds of pages, and it can be very disappointing for a student. So we hope that we have managed to create a balance.

Even when the characters were considered especially cruel or ruthless, we have tried to show their other side. We have tried to show the complexity of his personality. Therefore, of course, such efforts are being criticized. We have no objection. And if there are positive suggestions for improvement, we will always take them in.

A note – what was thought behind the history of the past – at the beginning of the history of the past, which belongs to the Delhi Sultanate, Mughals and colonial era? Second World War is also a reference to and how the current generations should not be held responsible for the acts done under Nazism. Please explain.

This is an early note for the student, which will suddenly be exposed to unpleasant events of the past. It is not that the earlier period was free from such events. We want to prepare the student for the fact that we are entering a phase where there will be unpleasant events. This phase is not limited to the so -called medieval period. It is spread over the colonial era, where famine and millions of deaths occur. Estimates differ from 30 to 60 million deaths, many of which could be avoided. It is disappointing to read someone – how India was also looted, spoiled, and so on.

So we thought that we should convince the student that we are not doing this in any sense of bitterness or revenge. We do this because it is important to honestly face unpleasant events – which we call the deep chapter of history – and attract lessons from them to avoid their recurrence in the future.

And we took the example of World War II because this is the most striking example, where there were untold atrocities. Now, at least, they are very well documented, because these are not ancient times. And yet, we find that a few years after World War II, Germany was on good conditions with most European powers, in which Nazi Germany misbehaved so badly. This was possible because the facts were faced and accepted, as there was no attempt to deny them. And of course, because the new Germany, after the Second World War, condemned it.

We are not trying to parallel it with anything in the Indian past. We are simply saying that it is only looking honestly in history that you can find the key to treatment- sorrow, the pain that provokes the past, sometimes, large parts of the population.

The most recent example we can take is the chapter on the colonial rule in the textbook. Because there is a government, a nation in place – even in Britain – and it is not unknown that there was a dollar dollar dollar, which is very well documented from British rule to Britain.

From time to time, calls have been made by the UK to accept the suffering suffering on colonies, but there are many financial results in such acceptance. Do you think you will change anything mentioned in the textbook?

I think Britain has not adequately recognized the tremendous amounts of victims, which not only in India, but also in most of its colonies. I will not discuss the question of revaluation, which is a different issue, but at least an honest entry of crime – misbehavior, atrocities and economic loot during the colonial period – is something that we have not seen to the desired extent.

This is not about blaming today’s British people. They are not responsible for what happened a hundred years ago. It is about being clear about history and to understand what the British were inspiration.

We had a place banned, but we wanted to bring this important element- for example, how the colonial British rule ruined India’s original industries, which were flourishing until the 18th century. These are things that are not sufficiently known.

Unlike older versions, the new class eight does not mention Social Science Textbook, Tipu Sultan or Hyder Ali. On the other hand, there is a complete chapter dedicated to the rise of Marathas and Shivaji’s exploits. What was the idea behind starting a new chapter on Marathas?

For events such as Anglo-Mousore Wars, you will have to give adequate reference to the student for the incident. You cannot just leave names like Tipu Sultan and Hyder Ali. We have to dedicate two to three pages for this. However, there are four and years after class eight, where working groups can take some subjects (which were left out), and the gaps will be filled in somewhat later years, expected.

It is very well known among historians that the partition in Hindu, Muslim and then British period is not valid at all. We wanted to show that it was not a direct story, and there was a lot of resistance. We can only mention the case of Ahom in Assam and Sikh Empire very briefly. Each of them would be technically worth a large treatment.

But we selected the Marathas for a large focus because it is a fact that they were those who eventually managed to build, although in short, an empire that spread to a very large part of India – their influence increased to Delhi and even beyond Pakistan today. He stopped several attempts by the Mughals to win the south of India. Aurangzeb got caught in Deccan for more than 25 years. He was unable to return to Delhi on a large scale as he was blocked by Maratha operations.

I am only explaining the statement we have given in the textbook, which was deliberately a little stimulating – perhaps the British conquered India over the Marathas than the Mughals.

In the new class eight textbook, there is no mention of Razia Sultan or Noor Jahan. However, there are references to Rani Tara Devi, Durgavati and Ahilibai Holkar. Can you comment on the depiction of women in the textbook?

I think the option was not something we saw very deeply. It was more in the fact that we chose a story. We could be selected too much. For example, why did we choose Hazrat Mahal and Noor Jahan? I would like to tell that the election is not final. There are more chapters to come in the second part of classes seven and eight.

For example, Hazrat Mahal is a wonderful personality with tremendous strength, and she is very poorly known. So she was probably entitled to a slightly higher highlight than better known names, which may appear in the latter stage.

Students of the academic year 2025-26 are currently going to study after six months, there is no visibility on it, as only one of the social science books has been released. Can students expect to release parts two books for classes 7 and 8? In addition, NCERT has not released a new course. Comment…

As far as the curriculum is concerned – whether it is published or not, or in what form – which is not in our hands. This is actually to decide for NCERT.

If you look at classes seven – part one and class eight – part one, they are already available. In fact, you can fill in some intervals yourself. Class seven – Part ends with a Gupta Empire. We part in class seven – in part two, with the period that after the disintegration of the Gupta Empire. There were many important dynasties, so we will find out what is the identity of that period. The transitional 11th and 12th centuries will also be addressed in part two of grade seven.

We have started the colonial era in part of the grade eight textbooks. So that naturally leads to struggle for freedom – the movement to free India from British colonial rule – which will be taken in the second part.

There are rumors that the right wing can affect the direction of new textbooks. Does the development of new textbooks reflect the revival of political ideology?

So the media loves these stories, and finding a political ax to grind is always very attractive. Our textbook development team has experienced zero political pressure from the government or any RSS channel or personality.

Under the mandate of the National Education Policy 2020 and the National Course structure, we have been left free to be considered appropriate. There is a review process and a large committee – the National Course and Teaching -Shiksha Samiti (NSTC) – which oversees the process. The names of members of the NSTC committee are in the public domain. But it has nothing to do with any kind of political control.